a Great honor to meat you brother Mel

You provide a good additional argument supporting the only conclusion that any serious bible reader can come to in reading what Paul wrote: Namely, Paul clearly indicates that speaking in tongues will continue until the Rapture.

Thanks for your contribution.

Kind Regards,
Brother Mel

The coming of the perfect will make Paul’s understanding, thoughts, and speech when he wrote this letter seem like childhood.

Here are some things to think about:

1. Was Paul around to witness the completion of the canon?
2. Can you say that because you have the New Testament scriptures, your understanding, thoughts, and speech are so much more advanced that Paul’s that his seems childish?
3. If the New Testament is written mostly by Paul, while would his childish understanding make your understanding complete?

Now, let us consider an argument from context. The idea that ‘the perfect’ is the completed canon has absolutely nothing to do with the context of scripture. There are ideas that fit much better with the context.

Paul often starts a thought in one chapter and gets off into tangents and carries on the thought later on. Like in I Corinthians 8, he talks about not eating meat offered to idols. He goes off on a tangent (don’t mean that in a negative sense) on individual liberty and uses how he gives up payment as an example of sacrificing personal liberty. Then he gets back to the issue of meat offered to idols, finishing it up in chapter 10.

Another prime example of ‘long thoughts’ are those thoughts on Jews in Romans, starting in chapter two, and, after many tangents, being explained in chapters 9-11, and then again in chapter 15.

Does Paul mention any subjects in chapter 13 that he expands on later on? Yes, he does. In chapter 13 he mentions 3 topics and he expands on them in chapters 14-15.

1. I Cor. 13–tongues —–> 1. I Cor. 14– tongues
2. I Cor. 13–prophecy —–> 2. I Cor 14– prophecy.
3. I Cor. 13– the coming of the perfect —–> 3. I Cor. 15–the state of things in the resurrection.

We need to consider the context of the epistle. Plus, the following verse from the beginning of the epistle may give us insight into the argument Paul had in his head when he spoke of ‘the perfect’ in chapter 13.

I Corinthians 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Have this verse in your head while you read that section about the gifts ceasing when the perfect comes. Since the resurrection occurs at the Lord’s return, it is easy to see that Paul has in mind his topics he is going to write in this book, even in the first chapter. He is going to talk about gifts and things related to the Lord’s return. And this verse is pretty good evidence that he expects the gifts to continue until the Lord’s return.

Thanks for the encouraging words. I’m always glad to disscuss these matters with people that do not flip out.

I did mean that God does not give us on going revelation as far as scripture goes. I do not dissagree that the Holy Ghost teaches us.

I guess my next question would be what language are you gifted with?

Thanks a lot

Jesus Christ is Lord!

Joseph

Thank you for your comments. Please allow me to respond.

Your first sentence seems to be in response to I Cor. 13:8-12 which speaks of the eventual cessation of speaking in tongues. The Scriptures tell us in verse 10: “But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” Some interpret this passage to mean that tongues would cease when the last scripture was written by the last apostle.

From the context of the entire passage of scripture, Paul makes it clear. He was speaking of two time periods: Then, and the future. In his day was the partial. In the future would be the perfect. In his day “we know in part and we prophesy in part.” In his day, “…we see through a glass darkly.” In his day, speaking in tongues was a part of their experience. At a specific point in the future, tongues would no longer be a part of the Christian’s life.

But Paul described precisely and with no ambiguity that future point in time: He said it would be “[when perfection comes],”–Amplified Version. You objected to the KJV referring to Christ as “that,” but surely you won’t object to the Amplified calling Christ “perfection.”

Paul told us that prophecies, tongues, and knowledge shall cease “[when perfection comes].” At that same moment, we shall see “face to face.” If this isn’t speaking of the face of Christ, then whose face should we be looking for? At the same instant that tongues cease, perfection comes, we see face to face, “then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].” (Amp).

I don’t know any legitimate minister who claims to have the infinite knowledge equal to how infinitely God knows us.

Tongues will cease when infinite knowledge comes. Infinite knowledge is not present. Therefore, tongues have not ceased.

Tongues will cease when we see the face of Christ, when we receive the infinite knowledge that will come only in his glorious presence, and not before then. No other interpretation fits all the criteria Paul listed.

As to your second main point, “We no longer have on-going Revelation from God.” If by that you mean that the Scriptures are complete, I agree.

If however, by that statement you mean that God never reveals anything to anyone anymore, I don’t know anyone who believes that, and even you don’t believe that either.

Several examples:

If God no longer reveals anything to His Children, then how can a preacher know he is personally, specifically called to preach? Every preacher out there says they “felt called.” What is that “feeling,” or that “call?” It is a revelation from God of His purpose for that man’s life.

If God no longer reveals anything to His children, then what do we do with Romans 8:16, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.” When the Holy Spirit gives the assurance to a Christian’s heart that he is truly born-again, what is that assurance or “witness?” It is a revelation from God of the reality of the Christian’s salvation.

If God no longer reveals anything to His children, then what do we do with Christ’s description of the work of the Holy Spirit? “…the Holy Ghost…shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you…he will reprove the world of sin…he will guide you into all the truth…and he will show you things to come.” John 14:26, and 15:8, 13. He gives us revealtion after revelation, teaching us truths from God’s word, reminding us of Christ’s words, guiding us into all the truth, and showing us things to come.”

That scripture tells us the Holy Spirit, “will reprove the world of sin.” That means He will convict sinners of their sin. What is conviction? The Holy Spirit REVEALING to the sinner that he is lost and needs a savior, the Savior, Christ Jesus.

Lastly, if God doesn’t speak to His children anymore, then why did Paul pray as he did for the Ephesians? He prayed for God to give them REVELATION. “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and REVELATION in the knowledge of him…” Eph. 1:17. Why pray for God to speak more, if God had ceased speaking entirely?

I agree with you that we receive no new Scriptures. I agree with you that we receive no new doctrines to add to the foundational doctrines of Christ. But I do not agree that God has ceased speaking entirely through His Holy Spirit. That belief is simply not scriptural.

So I believe our disagreement is this:

You claim that tongues have ceased, and that God no longer speaks to His children anyway.

I’ve shown from the scriptures though that tongues will continue until Christ comes, and that the Holy Spirit still reveals truths to the Body of Christ.

Respectfully Brother Josehp, I think my arguments hold water, and that your’s don’t.

As to your last point, “There is no heavenly prayer language either. That is not mentioned anywhere in scripture.” You are correct in that the particular phrase is not mentioned in Scripture. But you and I both believe many phrases that are not specifically mentioned in Scripture.

I believe in the “Trinity,” don’t you?

I believe in “eternal security,” don’t you?

I believe in a “literal Heaven,” and a “literal Hell,” don’t you?

These specific phrases, like many others have been commonly accepted in orthodox Christianity for centuries, even though they do not specifically appear in scripture.

Brother Joseph, we can explore these topics further if you so desire. I welcome your comments to this site, or to my private e-mail at giftoftongues@hotmail.com.

God Bless You! I look forward to your response.

Kind Regards,
Brother Mel

We no longer have on-going Revelation from God.

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jude said it right there! The faith that was once delivered meaning past tense complete. Not the faith that is being continually delivered unto the saints.

Also Note Hebrews ch 1:

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Spoken, in times past, all past tense. There is no heavenly prayer language either. That is not mentioned anywhere in scripture.

http://psalm9416.com/mytongues&info.htm

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/BTP/Dr_Max_Younce/Tongues/toc.htm